Why are we being charged for the fixes?????

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    Redemptioner1

    Seriously, you are charging us the shipping for a full unit for each upgrade kit on top of the $125usd to fix the problems...wtf!

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    Jonny Yeu

    Hi Redemptioner1, the upgrade kits allow for faster splicing and more reliable printing with flexibles and other softer materials. You can read more about this here: https://www.mosaicmfg.com/blogs/news/palette-2s-and-palette-2s-pro-the-most-reliable-palette-yet-1

    We still have many Palette 2 (Pro) users who are finding success with their units and would not require this upgrade. The price of the kits are $99 USD and $125 USD, and with the new Splice cores, re-designed drive arms, and additional switches, tubes and other spare parts, the value of the kits are worth even more than the price difference between Palette 2 (Pro) and Palette 2S (Pro), which is $100 USD.

    Lastly, we have free shipping for North American and the EU. If you're outside of this region, there is a shipping fee.

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    Redemptioner1

    That is a pretty crap way to treat your existing customers wouldn’t you say??

    Take the money from the early adopters, let them work out some of the problems , then fix those problems (“allegedly”) in the product line going forward but charge the existing customers to fix their machines…….Some real customer loyalty their…

    I just don’t get why you would send me some replacement arms, that I specifically asked you NOT to send me,  instead of sending me the new fix kit?? The shipping should be the same so why send me replacement parts that will likely have the same issues instead of just sending the parts that have been “fixed” to resolve the issue permanently?

    For warranty replacements going forward, will you be supplying the old stock parts or the new “Fixed” parts?

     

     

    I honestly hope you get some real backlash over this, in your own promotional videos you can't help referring to the replacement upgrades as "fixes to existing problems", then you try to sell it as an "upgrade". So clearly these are fixes being labeled as "upgrades" and you are making you customer pay for your original failure of design, but if you waited and did not early adopt the product then you get these fixes included in your new Palette 2 for free.....

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    Jonny Yeu

    Hi Redemptioner1, this isn't an upgrade that is needed for your unit to work, Palette 2 (Pro) still works and we have many users which this upgrade is not necessary for. You're free to choose if you would like to include this upgrade or not. The price difference between an S unit and a standard unit is $100 USD, while the kits are $99 and $125 and include the upgrade parts in addition to spare parts.

    We sent you replacement parts as yours broke under warranty and we wanted to ensure that you had the proper parts with you. In the future, we'll send the corresponding parts of S and standard kits.

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    Redemptioner1

    @Johnny

    How on earth can you make the argument that the upgrades are not required Johnny, you are in the threads for the numerous issues raised here in this forum??

    It is pretty simple logic to determine that these “upgrades” are indeed fixes, if the standard parts that you are replacing in your “upgrade kit” keep failing and preventing you from printing as per the sales pitch on the website, how are these “upgraded” parts not required to fix the existing issues? As I noted, your own promotional video for the upgrades, the video goes into the “Issues” that users are having with standard parts and the fact you have created a fix for this in the upgrades kit. When a customer then has the standard part fail and you send them the same substandard part that failed last time instead of the part that has been “upgraded” to fix the problem how is this fair and reasonable?  I have certainly provided plenty of evidence that there are a number of ongoing warranty problems with your product, some of which would be fixed with the “upgrade kit”, the fact that you stated “we have many users which this upgrade is not necessary for” clearly shows that all, let alone most of your users, do require this upgrade as it is necessary to get success with their palette. The fact you used the word “many” (a word most commonly used to describe a value much lower than 50% of a sample) to describe the number of users not having problems says it all…..for most of your users it is necessary for the upgrade kit to be able to reliably use their palette 2.

    Going forward you will continue to ship out the substandard old parts instead of the newer “fixed” parts on warranty returns for non-s version, that is seriously crap customer service. Why continue to send me the parts that are substandard and have failed on more than one occasion, surely sending me a third set of replacement arms that have previously all fail the same way doesn’t make much sense, not from a cost perspective let alone a customer service one…..

     

    I also point out that there is still about $200 outstanding on the refund to me. I have made several attempts in the last few months to get this resolved but it seems like your customer service team just puts these emails in the trash and do not bother to respond. At the very least you could of sent me an upgrade kit instead of the refund so I could see if the upgrade kits actually work before being forced to buy a bunch more.

     

    Fixes

    New splice core

    • Changes splice core Teflon tube design (thinner, different Teflon grade)
    • Changes the slice core heater tube (thinner, different metal)
    • Improved the tolerances (reduced the loosey-goosey of the splice core tube mounting)
    • Increase wire wraps for better temp control (more even, more of them)

    Switches

    • Reduced the protrusion of switch level
    • Reduced switch action distance

    Arms

    • Change the plastic to a more robust plastic (stop the arms melting)
    • Changed the idle bearing (better bearing, no dodgy clearance on side of idler)
    • Semi-transparent (can see jams)
    • Moved the Idler wheel (idler wheel now aligned to allow better flexible and multi-material handling)

     

    Fixes still outstanding

    Motors

    • Change to a 0.9* degree motors
    • Gear the motors to prevent stall
    • Dual drive the gear motors to slipping
    • Shield the motor wires from other electronics

    Scroll Wheel

    • Use digital signal
    • Use smaller scroll wheel after each motor output
    • Shields power and signal wires

     

    Spice Core

    • All metal Tube core (remove ceramic parts)
    • Allow PID control over Heater element
    • Add temp sensor to heater tube
    • Improve the tolerances (still so many gaps in S version)

    Buffer

    • Add a switch to detect buffer is full
    • Change switch design so it doesn’t get caught on filament

     

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    Jonny Yeu

    @Redemptioner1

    Yes, the purpose of the forums is to allow a place where users can share their issues and questions in order to find solutions. This includes the posts that you've shared, and we've provided consistent service to you by providing replacement parts, covering the costs of exchanging units, and being responsive to your feedback. If you're still having issues, we're happy to continue to provide assistance.

    The S upgrades are a result of feedback from all of our users. As mentioned, it's not a necessity, but if you would like to enjoy the benefits of these upgrades, you're free to do so. Concerning replacement parts, we provide replacements for parts under warranty. This is the reason why we would send standard parts for standard units and S parts for S kits.

    You're very active on our forums and other social media channels, and have not seen any mention about this refund anywhere else. I don't have a record of any e-mails either, but I will look into the $200 refund and process this immediately if this amount is outstanding.

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    Jonny Yeu

    After taking a look at our threads with you, I see that you returned a Palette 2 unit and opted to upgrade to a Palette 2 Pro as you mentioned that the issues you experienced were on your P2 unit but not on your other P2Pro units. We charged for shipping and the upgrade difference of $200 USD, then provided additional spare parts totaling ~$100 USD free of charge. We also covered the shipping charge of returning your unit to our offices ($101.07 CAD) and the shipment of replacement parts ($53.90 CAD). We did receive your CANVAS Hub unit at our offices, but we had never discussed any issues or returns regarding your Hub unit. Could you please clarify where the outstanding $200 USD is stemming from?

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    Redemptioner1

    Well that is misleading at best Johnny, want to have another crack with a customer service hat on?

    As I am sure you can easily confirm with Manmmeet, the Palette 2 was returned under warranty as the scroll wheel had failed (among other issues) and therefore was not operating as it was sold to me to operate. As part of the warranty return I requested to do the warranty replacement with a Pro and pay the difference in cost price as I already had 4 Pro’s and they were less trouble than the standard Palette 2. You obliged me on this request and I paid the additional $200USD. You waited the couple of weeks for the original palette 2 to show up and be assessed and payment processed for upgrade before shipping the replacement Pro out. Probably the only bit or real customer service I have had was facilitating the upgrade, although I hazard a guess Mosaic would prefer this to have happened anyways as I know you are well aware how much more reliable the Pro’s are and it no doubt has saved you on additional return costs as the standard palette 2 was no doubt going back again in 3 months’ time, so let’s no suggest you were doing me a favour hey…

    According to your website and part of our sales contract, warranty returns costs are covered by Mosaic. Alas, as I had ordered a number of additional replacement parts for the Palette’s as part of the warranty return process I did not realise you charged me not only for the upgrade and what I thought were the spare parts, you also charged a fresh round of shipping to ship back a “working” unit that was returned under warranty. Positive any Judge would agree with me you need to pay for the shipping both ways based on your websites information.

     Can you point me to the bit where it says customers have to pay for warranty return items? 

    I see you say the parts were free, something I did not ask for and if we are being honest, you should of supplied the replacement parts as free as clearly the parts failing were due to design and should have been covered under a warranty claim (slice tubes dying prematurely, replacement arms and idlers failing etc), ok there was maybe $4 in there I should of paid for the 2 rubber grommets I asked for as extras (something I realised was a waste later on as you DON’T want to use this “grommet” setup). You covered the return shipping, as per Mosaic’s warranty process, as you should as I bought the product in good faith (with a fair and reasonable expectation it would operate for the warranty period without fault) and paid for shipping to Australia. Mosaic supplied the sale to Australia, took my money multiple times and shipped the products. When Mosaic’s product then fails it clearly should not be at my, the customer, cost to resolve Mosaic’s faulty product nor should I have to cover the cost of getting it back to you to repair as Mosaic are the ones that chose to charge & accept payment for the goods and shipped the product to me (with tones of shipping margin going in your pockets) knowing where it was going. Mosaic supplied the faulty product to my location so it is Mosaics responsibility to cover any costs as a result of your product being faulty. Had I been living in the USA atm I could start charging you for any downtime or lost business as Mosaic is responsible for the damage or costs incurred as a result of their products being faulty in the USA (here in Australia too) and you openly market the pro for business so you are the sole responsible party for any costs incurred due to warranty faults.

    The hub was agreed shortly after getting it that it need to be returned for warranty, they do not work and never will which is backed by the developer who makes octoprint which is the system running palette 2. There is enough evidence on the internet to drown an elephant supporting this point so there is simply no argument to be had, warranty return for refund thanks. So I popped the hub in the box when I was packing up the palette for return as there was room in the box to ship it back, I let Manmmeet know that is what I did. I don’t see the issue here, you know the product doesn’t work, it is in perfect condition (without the original box) and you previously agreed to return it so what’s the issue?  Just refund what I paid for it so we can move on.

    So the approximate $200 is made up from the hub which was approximately $80USD and the shipping another ~$115USD which is the ~$200USD (a bit under but close enough for the discussion at hand). That’s not to mention the fact that the new Pro lasted 2 prints before it failed with bearing in the arm of the output motor failing and it melted its way out of the arm and melted into the main face and filament path. This should be another replacement, not just the arm but the main face plate as the has been melted and is no longer the original filament path (which means another whole new unit). Now I have done enough to stop the filament catching and escaping so I can continue to use it as I did not want another month in downtime and pay yet another ridiculous round of shipping, Mosaic and yourself are well aware of this happening (also documented on the this forum) and by all accounts you should be arranging a replacement, instead you sent out a replacement arm which I specifically asked you not to do as already had spares of the old arm design that was already failing multiple times and did not want more and yet not a peep about fixing the real damage to the unit. Would you be charging me freight yet again to ship back this brand new palette unit replaced under warranty ("yes with an upgrade to pro") after only 2 weeks use if it is returned again under warranty??

     

    For now I wish to clear up the outstanding issues before being subjected to your warranty process again. 

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    Jonny Yeu

    Hi Redenptioner1, you can find our warranty and return policy here: http://mm3d.co/p2warranty

    Could you please clarify where you found the sample return policy that you posted above?

    We do cover the costs related to returns for repair/exchange or replacements parts (shipping, duties, etc.). We provided you with a return label and covered the cost of the unit being transported back to our offices. You then requested to place an order for replacement parts and for a new upgraded unit, which is where the shipping charge emerges from. If the face or filament path are damaged on your unit, we can definitely provide you with additional replacement parts.

    Concerning the P2 unit that you returned to our offices, we found no errors with the encoder wheel as it performed similar to our in-house units. We also have no record of agreeing to a CANVAS Hub return and refund. If you continue to experience issues with any of your units, we're happy to provide support.

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    Redemptioner1

    These are your returns policy when the warranty exchange was done and I paid the additional charges for the upgrade, it is a screenshot of your own website you numpty, why do you think I put it in there asking you to show me where I am responsible for shipping faulty products around....

    Unfortunately for you some of us know how to use page inspections and I see you have updated the terms you are displaying since my post, you do realise the page records the date of the change (and so does google), looks pretty suspect guys when you then put a big "title" block saying "Last Edit: Nov 4, 2019" when the pages records a different date..... common guys, if you are going to be dodgy you got to be better than this....

    Prove you found no errors, going to be hard to prove that with multiple forum posts providing evidence to the contrary without replacing the parts.... The fact of the matter is you waited till the warranty return unit arrived, did the test (which no doubt failed) and then agreed and issues the warranty exchange and allowed the pro to be released. You at no stage arranged or shipped the pro prior to receiving the warranty return unit and completing testing. It's like you are trying to make out you guys were so nice, you shipped the new pro out immediately and dealt with the warranty as a separate item which simply is not true. You agreed to do the warranty return as you were unable to resolve the issue via comms and funny enough changing the unit resolve the scroll wheel fault causing an ever climbing Pong and never getting a successful print as a result (always collapsed the transition buffer due to scroll wheel readings being incorrect/errored). 

    So don't lie to me Johnny, the evidence does not lie and your actions to date only support the evidence of the unit being faulty. I also point out again that the Hub is not suitable to be used as you intended it, this is so well documented that is boggles the mind that you are still flogging them off to unsuspecting customers.As for the Hub, Octoprint says NO! to Mosaic's Hub and Mosaic has a proven track record that they DON'T KNOW BETTER!  So I point out again, what is the issue with the return of the Hub as there was no objection from Manmmeet other than asking if we had arranged the return previously, when explained it was just a return of a non-working item there was no objection. This is as expected as the product does not work and it has been returned to you in premium condition so what is your problem, have you been told "no refunds for the dodgy hub"....??

    As for taking this offline with the support team, that is where we started but your customer service team regularly just does not respond to an contact or reply email, basically if it is not easy or Manmeet directly you don't usually bother to respond (I believe I chased you guys up 4- 5 times via email without response before mentioned the outstanding refund in the forum).

     

    As for the damaged pro that lasted 2 weeks, you have the photos, you have the details, you have the record of the pro being shipped just before the failure, you were told not to send the dicky part that I have a whole bunch of but you did anyways, but you did not bother to send the part that was damaged and actually matters or arrange for a new unit (you just did the exact opposite of what I asked). And now you are saying you are going to look after any issues with the new Pro, but you have also stated I will have to pay for shipping doing a warrant return again. So you think it is reasonable for the customer to be paying for a third set of $125USD shipping fees on a Palette 2 after a second warranty fault and that second warrant fault happening only weeks after being replaced....???

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    Jonny Yeu

    We don't appreciate name-calling, redenptioner1, so this post will be closed.

    Also, the edit to our warranty is noted as being made for the S announcement. Please direct me to where your screenshot was taken, as our warranty can be found here (http://mm3d.co/p2warranty). Based on the italicized print on your screenshot, it seems that you're basing our policy on a website template.

    Manmeet has spoken with your over e-mail about the tests that we have run in-house regarding your unit. As noted in my last post, they perform similar to our in-house units. If you'd like additional information, please refer to the e-mail thread between yourself and Manmeet. I would also ensure that you're using support@mosaicmfg.com as our records show that we have always responded to your support requests.There is one exception in which I respond in the forums instead of via e-mail.

    The return of your unit was because we could not solve this issue remotely, which is why we opted to have your unit returned to our offices. You then requested a new Pro unit in exchange, which was done as an exception along with the free parts. Concerning your Pro, please share some photos of the face/filament plate or any other damaged parts and we would be happy to send you replacements.

     

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