Palette 2 Jamming

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    Jonny Yeu

    Hey M, thanks for sharing all this information. Yes, please do come by and visit us at our ERRF booth and feel free to bring your Splice Core. I've spoken with our hardware lead and the white residue is normal on the nichrome wiring as it is the coating changing colour. I did want to ask, which version of Palette's firmware are you currently running?

    Please send me an e-mail (jonny@mosaicmfg.com) with your details and I'll get a set of splice tubes sent to you. We appreciate you taking the time to do all this testing, and it may just be an issue with the tube that's currently in your Splice Core. We can at least isolate this issue by replacing it with a new tube.

     

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    Jim Neill

    So I just started printing with the palette 2 again after it sitting dormant for some time.  I upgraded the firmware to the latest version. I made it through 1 19 hour + print and when I got through a good chunk of the same print overnight it jammed.  I was able to clear the jam and start the print again, but once again the jam occurred several hours into the print.  This time the filament couldn't just be pulled from the splice core.  So I disassembled the palette 2 and pulled the splice core out and was able to pull the filament out of the splice tube.  I pulled the splice tube and compared it to my very last one that came with my purchase.  The unused one is showing an outside dimension of 2.98-2.99mm while the one that I took out has an outside diameter of 3.05-3.06. Am I to assume that the splice tube expands over time with heat, which I don't think it should.  I would think if it swelled up that much outside then the same would happen to the inside diameter of the splice tube, which in turn is causing the splices to get larger than what has been mentioned here as acceptable splice thicknesses.  Has it been determined by anyone else that the pro's splice tube is actually more reliable?  Can the Palette 2 be upgraded with the Pro Splice Core?  I was one of the pre-orders so I'm curious if there was a bad batch of teflon splice tubes released out there and it's since been resolved?  I'd hate to have to start buying splice tubes to swap out every 4 prints just so the Palette 2 doesn't jam constantly.

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    Jonny Yeu

    Hi Jim, have you run Splice Tuning with your filament (http://mm3d.co/p2splice-tuning)? If so, what are you settings, and can you share a picture of a splice for us? It could be that a thick splice caused your tube to expand, causing subsequent splices to be inconsistent. If you're finding that your splices are on the thick side, I would recommend a starting point of (2,-3,2).

    Concerning the Splice Core, they are not interchangeable between versions. We do include additional tubes in each Palette package, and also have additional tubes available on our store: http://mm3d.co/spare-parts

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    Jim Neill

    Thanks Jonny, I'll give tuning a try and see if it helps.  Yes, I have replaced the splice tube with the ones that came with the Palette 2 originally and after this last Jam/replacement I've installed my last extra one. 

    I still think that these jams should be detected by the firmware and at minimum pause the print to be able to clear the jam. I've mentioned this before; you have an encoder that is reading the movement of the filament and you have a switch that tells you the buffer has been taken up, if that movement stops and the switch is triggered the Palette is jammed, pause/stop the print.

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    Jonny Yeu

    Hey Jim, in our latest firmware, we do have new error codes (120 and 121) that will provide a warning when the buffer is collapse during a splice. These errors used to cause the printer to stop, but we removed this as there were instances where the buffer would collapse for a few seconds, then replenish and recover. However, I will pass along your request to our team to see if we can implement a better detection system.

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    Redemptioner1

    @Jim

    There is not a huge amount of difference in the splice core between the models, but in my experience the Pro's are much more consistent with their operation (there are some other variances in the case design and of course the big difference is the control boards). The palette will struggle to know when there is a jam using the scroll wheel and switch as the palette has no feedback between the printer and itself and therefore it can’t tell if the printer is just using less filament or has a jam, by the time it would know it would be too late as you would have skipped/missed steps on the output motor. Mosaic has implemented a watch on the output motor in recent firmware updates for signs of the motor stalling, unfortunately this presently only cancels the print (leaving the print head heating and on your part), in most cases it would be better for the print to continue and snap the filament off at the jam.

    Normally you could add a command to your octoprint G-code to lift the print head on pause, but alas mosaic use the Octoprint Pause command at the start of the print preventing you from adding any G-code to it as it will get executed whenever you go to start a print (so painful). Some additional scroll wheels at each motor output would resolve this issue and/or changing the extruders to dual drive/bondtec, hopefully the “upgrades” that has been getting hinted at for the last month (and should be free) will resolve these problem.

    After a couple of weeks of testing over multiple palette 2’s pro’s I found there are a couple things you can do to help with the jams:

    1. The splice core heating tube is loosey-goosy, this not only allows it to move around but also to kink in a curved sharp. The ceramic tubes holding the metal heat tube are not the same size internally and have a very poor tolerance between the ceramic tube and the metal heat tube, this results in a sharp lip internally on the surface of the Teflon splice tube at the end of the heat tube. This lip is what jams the splice core. You can correct most of this by;
    • Shim the ceramic tube in the splice core so it can’t move around making sure you line up the core parts straight when inserting the shim material, just use some aluminium foil folded over enough times to get the thickness you need. (not sure how well this will work with plastic casing of normal palette)
    • Also ensure the whole heating tube (ceramic and metal tubes) is push hard up against the top of the splice core (output side of core) and shimmed there as well

    1. There is too much compression in the standard palette splice settings which make the splice too long and puts too much pressure internally on the Teflon splice tube.
    • Change the splice tune settings by increasing the heat by 2, decrease the compression by 2-3 and leave cooling at 0
    • Don’t use the cover on the palette, the machine slowly raises in temperature as a result and you end up with completely different splices, after about 100 splices, then what you tuned for. If you tune with the cover on then you will often end up with a failed splices in the first 50 splices.
    • Use the newer Teflon Splice Tubes, they are significantly stronger, don’t deform as much with heat and the “ribbing” reduces the effect of the internal lip created in the Teflon splice tube mentioned above. They are not as non-stick as original Teflon tubes at the start, but I have some with over 15K splices on them now and going strong.
    1. Mosaic are using the wrong class of Teflon for the job they are using it for. As a result there are a number of materials the Teflon won’t be so non-stick to, one of these chemicals are created during filament creation and when brought to the right temperature it happily bonds the Teflon to the filament. All PLA’s have this chemical and it is especially bad for water-cooled filament production lines as not only is the chemical production increased, as it is pushed to the surface from the rapid cooling , it also builds up and concentrates in the coolant water ensuring a good coating on all the filament on the roll (Prusa filament is really bad for this).
    • Use some dry silicon spray (I use WD-40 brand as it has a nice smell) on the filament roll to prevent the jams. Teflon is super resistant to silicon and as a result it is a perfect lubricant to use with Teflon as it repels the surfaces apart with super low friction as a result. It also won’t leave any discolouration on anything, won’t affect filament bond strength or ease of use and most importantly it won’t soot or burn as it passes through the heating elements in the palette or printer. This will have the biggest impact of any fix on splice core jams, if you do nothing else this should still resolve most, if not all,  jams.
    • Just give the filament rolls a light spray and wipe it in with paper towel, repeat about every 40m of filament use or when you start to hear the “clicks” from the spice being moved out of the splice core again.
    • You can also give a generous spray & wipe on the first 30cm of filament at the start of the print ensuring a good coating on the splice core at the start of the print. Then just come back every couple of house and reapply the silicon spray to the 30m of filament on one of the colours currently being fed or when you here the clicking. If you spray the rolls instead you only need to come back once a day to respray.
    1. Voltage being supplied by the power pack has too much voltage ripple, struggles under load and creates tremendous electrical noise:
    • Get a better power pack, if you can adjust the voltage output from the power pack then aim for 12.33V as this is the optimum voltage between too much slice core heat and increasing motor torque.
    1. The Mosaic Team decided to use a cheap plastic in the idler arms, as result they have no resistance to heat, I have had 2 bearings fail now (both on output motors and one after only a month’s use on a new palette 2 pro). With the bearing failing it heats up and results in idler arm melting and collapsing which starts causing drag on the filament and jams as it can’t grip the filament, also damages the unit itself as the filament drags the side with the notches from hobb gear causing it to slowly saw its way through the plastic case.
    • Check your idler wheels on all the motors regularly, I would suggest once a month taking them all out and checking they still turn freely without any notching or resistance

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    Jim Neill

    Thanks redemptioner, I'll give some of your recommendations a try. I tried first just splice tuning based on mosaic's recommended table for petg and my palette 2 still jammed several hours into a 21 hour print with the lid off. I was able to catch it and bypass the palette to finish the print but it's still extremely frustrating. My filament has +/-.02 accuracy rating and the splice tune seemed completely fine, no bulging, it bends instead of snapping, etc.

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    Jonny Yeu

    Hey Jim, what splice tuning settings are you using? Could you also please share some pictures of your splices and, if possible, measure the diameter of the filament before, after, and on the splice?

     

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    Jim Neill

    I'll get the photos for you tomorrow, but wanted to check since I just got the announcement... what all is changed in the 2S upgrade besides the splice core? The Splice tuning was the recommended 0,0,-3 for PETG.

    Never-mind, found the upgrade video instructions.  Appears to replace the arms and sensors as well.  I went ahead and ordered the upgrade kit, hopefully the improved splice core/tube doesn't jam as much.

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    Jonny Yeu

    Thanks, Jim, we'll wait to see the splices. For future reference, the upgrade instructions can be found here: http://mm3d.co/p2s-upgrade

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    Redemptioner1

    I see some of my observations have been picked up by the Mosaic Team (I assume an external party picked them up for Mosaic and told their Technicians, I highly doubt they worked it out themselves) and rectified in the new RIPP YOUR EXISTING CUSTOMERS OFF package...or sorry I mean "upgrade" package. When I get my hands on a kit I will put it through the same barrage of testing to see how much it has helped. 

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