What are "Pinging" and "Ponging"? (Pauses on Transition Tower)

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    Sylvain GARNAVAULT

    Hi Jonny, can you elaborate about the ponging system in the Palette 2/2S  / Palette 2/2S Pro ?

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    Jonny Yeu

    Hi Sylvain, the ponging system is the same with Palette 2 and Palette 2S models, the encoder and buffer system is built into the unit and ponging is triggered by a switch.

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    Sylvain GARNAVAULT

    Yeeeesssss, I actually figured this out by myself with a Palette 2s just in front of me like 5h ago. My question is about the process used in those new Palette iteration as they obviously do not use a magneg glued on a tube... 

    What I wanted to know to be clearer is if the ponging system relies on the outgoing wheel measurement. Because it would imply that the bad calibration of it would affect the print results even more than I thinked before. 

    Oh and before your ask, yes this measurement can be off... at least for now... the factory settings was of by almost 2% when I received my Palette while the automatic calibration gives me result beetween 1.3 and 2.2 % off. I mean when ask to count 1000m it count 980 or 1020 sooooooo it's off, actually more than my extruder will ever be.

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    Jonny Yeu

    Yes, as mentioned in the article, the buffer is now triggered by the filament hitting the buffer switch rather than the magnet triggering a hall sensor. Each unit is calibrated before it leaves the factory and even if the amounts are not exactly 100%, this is accounted for in the SPC and PPM values for each Palette.

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    Sylvain GARNAVAULT

    Ok thanks and sorry for my misreading, a big animated picture tends to focus your attention when you read quickly in a foreign language and when the actual information is resume to two words in the last sentence of the article ;)

    So if I understand well the pong relies on the switch being triggered which require to deplete the buffer until the switch is triggered, is this process not a risk for the print becaus it will anihilate the buffer role in case of a great feeding demand arriving at the same time..

    BTW the miscounting I noticed while being accounted by SPC and PPM is still a 2% amount of error in filament production so far beyond the 0.1/0.2 % your point in the article. Were you talking of the amount of error after the historical modifier correction ?

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    Jonny Yeu

    You're welcome! Palette will replenish the buffer if it senses that a splice is going to occur soon. If your buffer does collapse during a splice, then lowering the print speed would be recommended, especially if you're using high values for your Splice Tuning settings. 

    Yes, the SPC, PPM, and HM will work together to ensure that splices are created specifically for the amount of filament that your Palette produces along with the amount of filament that your printer uses.

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    Sylvain GARNAVAULT

    Oh well still feel that you're eluding, I'm done with that if you cannot make one answer without explaining clearly what happen but still asking for users to change their settings we definitely cannot success in having a good conversation.

    It was the point I needed to finish my review on this product and your company. I will get a refund for this bug box and will sacrifice some dozen of living cockroach to the bug god in the hope you will one day listen to your users and made this product to get the full potential it deserve.

    And I'll keep searching how hell a system based on measurement can actually be ask for 1000mm, produce 980mm and prompt for 1100mm in it's main screen without affecting it's other process like ping, pongs and print quality just by keeping faith on it.

    I'm done, have a nice day, have a nice year

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    Jonny Yeu

    Apologies for any misunderstanding as I have answered your questions and have not eluded any of your inquiries. If you have any specific questions, please feel free to send us an e-mail at support@mosaicmfg.com. To further clarify, Palette accounts for any inconsistencies through our calibration process (which helps to provide the PPM, SPC, and HM values), which is why we recommend running calibration before attempting any multi-color prints.

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    Sylvain GARNAVAULT

    I got in contact with three of you, yourself via those forum commentaries, Adalyn via the support mail and Manmeet on the FB Group. None of you have been able to explain such a simple question.

    Your calibration process doesn't work it give variation of more than 4 % from the data I got by my experience and other users. There is no way it will not affect the process of your machine and you keep deflecting it on users fault.

    Adalyn has not even been able to confirm the MSF compatibily with P2, she even mistooken by explaining it was different from .maf file but those are the names given in your own softwares. And my last reply is without answers for 5 days now.

    Manmeet quit the conversation yesterday without answering and by stating that the soft could encounter "unexepected behaviour" if we don't push the button the button in "good" order which is not described anywher. 

    Yourself was not able to describe even the slightest clear clue on what the incompatibility with cure really is. It seems just to be a search en replace on the first place, how could this be such difficult for your teem to implement. How is this difficult to have one page that discribes your both solution abilities and limitations instead of hidding them in fragmented articles.

    In what world is this good design, in what world would you want us to still trust you. It is so so disappointing because I know it could work, I saw it in the groups, and I'm now sure that you will not do anything to make things better. As you don't seem to understand the user point of view and this is the basic step for starting a good design thinking.

    So many people came at me in private message to say me this kind of warnings, I didn't want to believe them, I was wrong. So many people claim beeing stuck with your device without any good results for month, how is this good for your company. So many people inluding me reported hardware default right from the beginning. 

    This is either incompetence or scam.... how sad for a such a potential product.... how deceiptfull for the maker community...

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    Jonny Yeu

    I apologize if you haven't received responses from our support team, but we have told you many times that these inconsistencies are addressed by the calibration values of SPC, PPM, and HM. If you're getting a large variance, then please send us a video of your unit going through the Palette calibration process and we can visually inspect if your encoder wheel is not performing as it should. As you've seen with many users on our Facebook page and other various channels, Palette works and there have been a large number of successful prints. If you're not finding success, then please provide us with specific information about your unit. 

    I've already provided you with information regarding Cura on another thread. There have been recent changes since V4 that can cause issues with how the file is processed in Chroma. We are currently working to solve these issues, but at this time we recommend V3.2-3.3 as this has been the most consistent version. We also offer CANVAS and are compatible with other slicer such as S3D, KISSlicer, and PrusaSlicer/Slic3r.

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    Sylvain GARNAVAULT

    And you continue telling every body that HM is only to correct the calibration of their printers. And you keep playing fool at me by not explaing how those parameters interact together and how they actually affect your learning process and the print quality as such massive offset continue to appear very late in the process... And you keep faking to understand that the inconsistencies are the calibration proccess itself making it false from the beginning.

    You continue using this totally dumb argument about the fact than some people success mean that every product are ok. And keep ingoring all the people, and there is a few, that cotinue to have problems. 

    I've provided you 32 gigas of elements, bug report, videos and measurement that give you information to work wtih. I gave simple suggestion that could definitely solve and improve things easily... and you still answering at me as I was a 5 years old trying to find how a Keyboard works. 

    As for Cura, this is not normal for you to be unable to handle it's more current version. The problem is not with Cura beeing not consistent. The problem is for you not beeing able to implement such a simple search and replace in your Chroma software.

    I even offer you to write a script for Cura if you give me some report on the actual problems with Cura 4, and you haven't been able to describe it better than I was after just 1 hour scrolling in the gcode files analysing output of both of your software (where I also found bugs)...

    You advertise about people to keep their own workflow, this is not true, this is false advertising. I don't care about you supporting S3D, KISSlicer or PrusaSlicer/Slic3r. I've seen Mitch videos advertising about you to take care of any gcode. Cura v4 is here for almost a year now there is no excuses.

    This is a quote of someone who has get in contact with me in a private message on FB :

    "I'm baffled by the Mosaic (and other responding peoples) lack of skill in fault finding and in general helping people with their issues. [...] They rather just seem like a pretty non-professional team"

    I wasn't knowing this guy and he took his time to send me this. How could you be proud of that...?

    I can understand any underlying problem, perhaps your not enough in the team, perhaps it was a bad serie, perhaps I don't know what... but you have no excuse to treat you customers like this and even more when there are asking simple question and offering their help.

    Sincerely

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    Jonny Yeu

    I've been more than willing to answer any questions that you have, but it doesn't help our support team when multiple threads are created over different channels as information can be lost. We will respond to you once we've reviewed the information that you've provided.

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    Sylvain GARNAVAULT

    You still dare transfering the fault on the user side after all of this. That's so hilarious... I'm not faulting asking wherever I can, you're faulting not to being able to answer in any of those communication thread.

    My delay with the saler is over, I'm asking for refund it's now too late...

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    Jonny Yeu

    Yes, we wanted to ensure that we had all the proper information before responding. I assume that you would prefer that.

    We will be posting the following to your Facebook posts:

    Hey Sylvain, we had some time to chat about your tests with the firmware and hardware engineers who created this calibration process and wanted to provide some additional context for you to further your understanding of how we adjust splice lengths to account for variability in both Palette and printers. Concerning the test that you've run with your Palette, the repeatability and consistency of the filament created is more important than the accuracy of creating a specific amount of filament. For example, if you ask your unit to create 1000 mm of filament and it creates 1005 mm of filament, when you run the test again it should create filament that is within 1-2% of 1005 mm rather than have it produce 1000 mm exactly. Even printers do not extrude accurately and this is accounted for in Pings when we calibrate with your printer. Some of our moderators have spent time emulating your test and they have validated that while they are not getting exact results but are getting consistent results within a few %. 
     
    There can be variability based on many factors. For example, different filaments will react with the encoder differently, which is why these calibration systems are built to account for these differences and we provide an additional Palette Profile on units. Using your experience, in the instance where you saw 998 mm out of the expected 1000 mm, if you were to ping we would see that less filament was used than expected and future splice lengths would be adjusted. When we pong, we see that it takes more steps to create additional filament, and the SPC would be adjusted for the following splices. Any SPC adjustments during the print do not affect the SPC saved to Palette's memory.
     
    We appreciate your eagerness to understand Palette's system, but please understand that although the results of your tests may not produce findings that you expect, the specific test does not evaluate Palette's actual purpose. If we claimed that Palette produces 1000 mm when asked to create 1000 mm, there would be no reason to use ponging. Likewise, if every printer were to extrude exactly 1000 mm as well, there would be no use for pinging. The reason these systems are in place is because variability is expected in 3D printing and adjustments need to be made throughout a print.

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    Sylvain GARNAVAULT

    I saw that and answered him, it's a first step to admit so perhaps you should start considering adding "bad spc calibration" and "outgoing wheel measurement error" to this list : 

    • Skipping
    • Filament diameter inconsistency
    • Imperfect first-layer adhesion
    • Moisture
    • Filament brand/color physical property differences
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    Jonny Yeu

    I'm not sure if you fully understand pinging and ponging as these systems are there in order to account for any measurement inconsistencies in both Palette's encoder and your printer's extrusion. The other points you've shared are the reason why we have a Splice Tuning guide (http://mm3d.co/p2splice-tuning) that contains information about how to create optimal splices. Concerning first-layer adhesion, this is a slicer setting and not related to Palette's function of creating filament for your printer to use.

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